Going Against Type

After joining Fidelity Investments in 2009, Kathy Murphy led several initiatives that pushed client assets from $850 billion to $4.4 trillion.  She was repeatedly named to Fortune magazine’s “50 Most Powerful Women in American Business”, one of the “Wall Street Top 50” and one of Barron’s “Top 100 Women in Finance”. In January 2021, at the age of 57, she was on a roll. And then she did something almost no one would ever have predicted. She quit — handing in her retirement to embark on a whole new life with a whole new purpose. In this interview, I talk with Kathy about why she gave up the spotlight at Fidelity to try something totally new. Her answers are quite Buckety.

David Abend (DA): So out of the blue — at least for the financial world — you announced your retirement in 2021. And I know this came as a shock to a lot of people. But given what happened in 2020 there was speculation that COVID had been a motivator. But that wasn’t the case, was it? You had been planning this for some time

Kathy Murphy (KM): Yes, absolutely. And, before we start, just congratulations on all the work you’re doing on The Bucket. I looked at the site and saw all the materials. It’s just so impressive.

DA:  Thank you very much.

KM: So in any event, I’ve always thrown myself totally into whatever I’m doing and at Fidelity. I felt very fortunate and privileged to be able to work at a company that really does put the customer first and that tries its best to get the resources you need for associates and for the business to do a great job.

And so I just loved running PI [Personal Investing] and working with all the incredible people there and all that. And I gave it everything I had. But I’ve always had sort of in the back of my mind when would I step out. And for me, David, it’s never been about the title and how many people report to me and all that.

It was all about the purpose and the people I got to work with. And I just felt so lucky at Fidelity to have both of those things in such abundance. Having said that though, because it was never about the title of the position and all that, I also wasn’t wed to any of that.

At the same time, in the back of my mind, when I saw what happened to my dad and to our family as a result, it was just a really impressionable reminder that life is short and you’ve got to make sure that in all facets of your life you feel good about what you’ve accomplished and how you spent the time. And because I had thrown myself fully into work and my family, there was a piece of my life that was missing and that was really service to others.

So I talked with my boss — and this was before COVID— and I told her that I was planning to retire and I could leave tomorrow if she was mad at me, or I’d be happy to stay and help. I didn’t realize I’d be signing up for two more years.

DA:  What was it that happened with your dad?

KM: Yeah, so he died of a massive heart attack when he was 57. And there’s six kids in my family, three of whom were still in college. And my father was, well, first of all, I just want to say that we were really, really lucky growing up. We didn’t have a lot of money, but we were a really close family with a lot of humor — a lot of just basic good old-fashioned American values.

But my dad was kind of the rock for all of us. And so when that rock got removed, that foundational rock, all of us were kind of at sea in different ways.

I also saw what my mom went through, which motivated me on some of our Women’s work [a reference to Fidelity’s initiatives to support women investors] because she was the absolutely typical woman in the relationship in terms of she did the budget, he did the investing. So I just saw it like the, the grief was overwhelming.

And, interestingly, I was just thinking about this today because of something else I’ll share with you, but I grew up as an Irish Catholic and I stepped away from the church for a while because, I’m wondering, how does God do this to us, right? It was just a hard thing to process and get your head around and then to see the implications that have ripple effects for years.

But lots of people go through this every single day. We all have stories, not just about people in their 50s and 60s, but people in their twenties and little kids and it’s just… death is just a hard suffering that people really had a lot of difficulty grappling with.

DA:  It is. Your story makes me think of my dad’s. His father, my grandfather, died of a heart attack at 52. And my dad was convinced that he wasn’t going to live past 52. And so he made a deliberate effort to do as much as he could before he reached 52. He went on some amazing trips, took time off from his job and made sure that if he died at 52 he wouldn’t have any regrets. I’m happy to say that he’s now 92 and he and my mom are still checking things off their Bucket list.

KM: So, good for him that he learned that lesson. It probably took me longer to learn the lesson than it did for him.

DA:  I’m curious about that. So my dad’s number was 52. Did you have the number 57 in your head? For instance, did you plan to retire when you reached the age your father died?

KM: It wasn’t as crystallized as that. But it was a number we all kind of circled. And so it’s funny. I’m the third of the six kids. And so every time somebody reaches 57, there’s sort of a joke that, hey, you got here. (laughter) And we’re all still here, which is good too. So it was something I was mindful of, but it wasn’t like no matter what I was going to retire at 57.

But as you approach it, you get more serious about it. Where am I in my life? And what are the trade-offs?

DA:  Right, and I know for my father, in some ways, it was a gift in terms of the perspective on life. Did you feel that way?

KM: (long pause) Oh my gosh. Yeah. I think probably more so now than I did for the first, you know, 20 years.

DA:  Yes, I’m sure it would be hard to think of it as a benefit early on.

KM: Yeah. You know, I paused when you said that. Because my mom who lost her husband when she was 54 had to raise these kids by herself. We didn’t have a lot of money, and she never remarried and she’s had dementia for the last 10 years, and she in particular had a tough life growing up and then it was a ‘how much should one person have to take’ type of thing.

And again, there are a lot worse situations than what my family went through, but I will say that her dementia was sort of a bookend. For me in terms of, gee, life is short. And it’s actually shorter than your actual mortality sometimes.

DA:  That’s a really good point. With The Bucket, we use mortality as a philosophical leverage point — to get people to think about how much time they have on this planet and to make choices to help them make the most of it. But we often get pushback on that with people saying, oh, I don’t want to talk about death. And at the same time, especially during COVID, people would say our message was more relevant than ever. 

KM: That’s right, it’s about the meaning of life, not about the meaning of death.

DA:  Right, exactly. And for a lot of people, that meaning comes from following their passions and not being afraid to fail. I know that’s something you feel strongly about because I found a post of yours on LinkedIn that you wrote for graduating Fidelity Associates in which you write:

Chart your course. Don’t be afraid to put yourself out there because of a lack of self-confidence or a fear of failure. Embrace the challenges and risks – they will help you grow.

What’s interesting about that is that the same advice could really be given to our readers who themselves are at a transition point in their lives.

KM: I think there’s sort of a practical reality, the “Do I have enough” question.  And I say that with sort of air quotes — whether it’s benefits, money, etc, that you feel like you can take that next step without a lot of stress and worry, because that’s a different kind of failure where you just don’t ever feel quite comfortable.

But if you have what you need, then you have to look at it differently. It’s hard to call it failure, but to the extent that it’s the opportunity missed. It’s a different kind of failure, right? I mean, you’ve got to decide what’s important to you, bigger picture and work your way back from that end of life and say, what are the most important things I want to accomplish from here?

And the only valuable asset we really have is our time. And so how you spend that time is the most important reflection on whether you think you’ve failed —not whether anyone else has thought you failed.

DA:  That reminds me of another one of your posts in which you talk about eliminating the “what ifs” from your career. What if did this. Or what if I did that. One of the things we’re trying to do at The Bucket is help people eliminate death-bed regrets. Which is kind of the same thing as your “what ifs.” And for me, creating The Bucket was the “what if” I didn’t want to have on my deathbed.

KM: Yeah, and good for you. It’s so inspiring. I completely agree with that. And I knew, for example, with my decision at Fidelity, I wouldn’t regret leaving Fidelity. I had worked really, really hard to get that business to grow on a different trajectory, to have it repositioned agilely and all that. And I waited until I was convinced it was secure. And once I did that and felt good about that — my biggest regret is never going to be about whether I left Fidelity too early. It’s about the unexplored opportunities in my life.

DA:  Well, that’s a good segue — do you have any unexplored opportunities? Things that you want to do that you haven’t done yet?

KM: Yes, so one of the first things that I did after being liberated from full-time work was signing up for a master’s program at Notre Dame — a masters in Theology. And I don’t plan to do anything with that formally like being a religious teacher or any of that stuff. I just wanted to deepen my understanding of faith in order to inform the next chapter in my life from a service perspective. I’ve been incredibly lucky. I have no wants. I have more time. So how do I spend that time most effectively in the service of others?

And it’s funny. There’s several people like me in this program — people that are older, getting close to the end of their careers. And I was talking to a guy in one of my classes, and he’s really chomping at the bit to answer that question. Like, what specifically am I going to do before I actually retire?

And I said, dude, you’ve got to go against type here. For me, I’m waiting for that answer to come to me as opposed to forcing that answer. I’m trying to use this program to understand more deeply what it is that I find most fulfilling and, more importantly, what can most effectively serve others.

DA:  What I hear in that is that you have real humility about what that is. I think a lot of people would say, Okay, I’ve always wanted to do this and now I’m going to go do it. But what you’re saying is that you’re going to wait and let it come to you. That’s really interesting.

KM: Well, I think too many people who are newly retired try and fill up their dance card to make sure that they’re not going to be either bored, or less relevant. And I’ve watched a lot of people retire and I think you can make a lot of mistakes in those first two years. I want to take a step back so that I have a more informed view than just trying to rush so I don’t feel bored.

DA:  I’d like to go back to the topic of not being afraid to fail. You have an expression that I love which is “Beware the comfort zone” which is all about how growth comes from trying new things – maybe things you’re not sure you’re good at. I’m wondering if there’s something you’ve done that’s been outside your comfort zone.

KM: So what’s funny is, first of all, I throw myself completely into every role, and I always think I don’t know anything when I start a job. And so I have to learn everything, work really hard, blah, blah, blah. And then I get to this place where I love the team I have, and I love the work we’re doing, and I don’t think I could love anything more.

And then some new opportunity comes on, and I’m thinking, it’s probably time to step up and push the boundaries. For example, the job at Fidelity was a gigantic change for me. Going from the legal side to the business side, a gigantic change for me — managing lawyers versus managing, for example, salespeople. It was totally different.

And so I enjoy the challenge of growth. You learn a lot. And you make mistakes, there’s no question about that. But I think you get fulfillment in the growth. So the comfort zone, I think, makes you a little less dynamic, more static. I think a lot of people get cranky and don’t realize it when they’re in the same job too long. That doesn’t mean you have to move from business A to business B. You just have to keep pushing the boundaries so that you stay fresh and excited.

DA:  I think it’s possible that someone reading this might think, it’s easy for you to get out of your comfort zone and retire and explore your ‘what ifs” and go to theology school and wait for your purpose to find you because you’re a really talented person and you have the means to follow your passions…but I can’t do that. What would you say to that person?

KM: No, totally, and they’re right that it was an easier decision for me. But I know a lot of people including my family that are in different circumstances. And what I would say is you’ve got to be honest with yourself about what’s truly important to you and your life. And so it does come down to what people in Personal Investing do for a living. It’s having a plan that lets you live the life of your dreams. And for some people, they want a lot of money in order to live the life of their dreams. But it’s about honesty. If you’re not honest with yourself, then it’s likely to become a death-bed regret, right?

DA:  Exactly.

KM: There’s no right or wrong answer. It’s just your answer. And so you go through the financial steps to give you the peace of mind that you either have enough to get done what you want to get done in a time-frame that makes sense, or you understand how much more time it’s going to take. If you just kick the can down the road with some general notion that I don’t have enough. That’s when you look back and you have the regrets. I don’t know how many people with lots of money, particularly women, think they’re going to run out of money and do badly. And it’s so sad because they’re not living their lives the way they want to. They’re living with insecurity and fear.

DA:  That’s so true. A lot to think about. So, I do have one last question, what’s your Bucket Age?

KM: Okay, so my guess is that my social security age is, for women, is probably around 87. So I have 27 years left. But I actually subtract about 10 years from that because dementia is rampant in my family. So I may actually have a shorter time period.

DA:  Obviously you’re somebody who has thought about this which is why I wanted to talk with you in the first place. But just calculating that number just now, did it make you think differently about what you’re doing?

KM: Well, again, the bookends for my family of dying too early or not being able to live the rest of your life the way you want. I do take that very seriously and, in all honestly, if I only have 17 years left, I gotta’ get moving here.

I think everyone should have a sense of urgency and personally, I didn’t need the number crystallized to give me that sense of urgency, right? It’s like hey, you got one life to live and you have to make the most of it because at the end of the day you can blame nobody but yourself on your deathbed.

DA:  Right. That’s great. So that’s all I have. Do you have anything else you want to add?

KM: The only thing I would say is, if anyone is thinking about going back to school, make sure you understand the amount of homework involved. (laughter). Have your eyes wide open about the amount of work involved. And don’t sweat a “B.”

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